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Topic: Is health care a "human right"?

All industrialized wealthy nations of the world agree that healthcare is a human right and see to it that all their citizenry receive it.
The U.S. is the only nation in the world where health insurance companies are allowed to make a profit all others agree that that is an immoral and barbaric concept.
Teddy Roosevelt called for universal heath care;”

We pledge ourselves to work unceasingly in State and Nation for . . . the protection of home life against the hazards of sickness, irregular employment and old age ...",

as did Franklin

''the right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health'

In 1948 the United Nations declared that;

Article 25 (1) of this declaration states: “Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.”

Yet a large percentage of Americans disagree, (basically republicans) with the otherwise universal human belief that health care is a human right.
Here is my question...Where does this disconnect with the rest of humanity come from?

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  • chovy
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

I don't understand why it's even up for debate. Everyone will benefit from universal healthcare (even republicans).
It's better for business, as a sole proprietor, it would be comforting to know I can go off and consult as the opportunities arise without having to fork out $1200/month in health insurance premiums as an individual.

The corporate health plans are ok. Even if you are lucky enough to have a job that provides healthcare, it's usually only a percentage that is paid, and leaves you at the mercy of the company. I'd rather be contracting, but for the price of healthcare, any improved net would go straight towards out-of-pocket plans.

It's disgusting to say the least. I leave it up to the baby boomer generation to make congress listen -- they are starting to suffer, and they are the last generation to have pensions + health coverage (even at partial rates) if they worked for the same company for 20+ years.

I don't understand how someone can talk about all the health problems they are having and then argue the opposite of having a universal plan that would basically alleviate the costs for them. The so-called "social service" argument, that if you take any handout from the government you're some kind of communist.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-10
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

This subject has much more attributed to it other than healthcare being a "right".....that is merely a political distinction and nothing else. The services are not free, and those who provide it expect to be paid....no one leaves home to go to work and give their work away for little to nothing, who does?
The biggest question now is the cost, which is something all the altruism in the world can't wish away.
I see on a daily basis the absence of personal responsibility regarding ones health....they spend money on all kinds of things far less important than safeguarding their health,then expect someone else to pay their bills.
We'll see how far this Nanny state mentality goes soon enough.

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  • chovy
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

The biggest issue is cost, you're right Patton. I have no problems paying for health insurance as I do car insurance. But the amount I pay for car insurance in one year is about what it costs for healthcare for one month. My biggest problems are the practices of the insurance industry, not covering people if they have pre-existing conditions, and not providing limits on the amount one pays out of pocket.

I think Obama has addressed those in his speech, the next thing to watch is whether or not he gets it done.
I would rather be contracting and paying $1200/year to insure my entire family, vs. working full time and passing the cost onto my employer.

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  • From: Denver, CO
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Leaving aside the debate over cost, how will it be paid for etc, and addressing the the subject line 'Is health care a "human right"', no it is not.

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  • chovy
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

What are examples of human rights? Are there any at all?

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  • Registered: 2009-11-10
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

chovy wrote:

But the amount I pay for car insurance in one year is about what it costs for healthcare for one month.

You're worth more than your car, aren't you?

If you are, how much more?

My biggest problems are the practices of the insurance industry, not covering people if they have pre-existing conditions, and not providing limits on the amount one pays out of pocket.

Do you have a problem with car insurance rates on 17 year old boy compared to you?

Why are his rates higher?

Last edited by Patton (2009-11-12 17:46:02)

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  • From: Denver, CO
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

chovy wrote:

My biggest problems are the practices of the insurance industry, not covering people if they have pre-existing conditions, and not providing limits on the amount one pays out of pocket.

I will have to check but I think big government solved this problem, at least here.  I am pretty sure that it is illegal to not cover pre-existing conditions.  With the way smaller business shop around for health coverage, this would be a huge problem.  I think we have changed providers every year at the place I am now, and we are changing again Dec 1.  Never been asked about pre-existing conditions, not once, even when they did exist.  My ex-wife for example.  Not sure that the pre-existing condition bug-a-boo is valid.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-11
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Biker Dude wrote:
chovy wrote:

My biggest problems are the practices of the insurance industry, not covering people if they have pre-existing conditions, and not providing limits on the amount one pays out of pocket.

I will have to check but I think big government solved this problem, at least here.  I am pretty sure that it is illegal to not cover pre-existing conditions.  With the way smaller business shop around for health coverage, this would be a huge problem.  I think we have changed providers every year at the place I am now, and we are changing again Dec 1.  Never been asked about pre-existing conditions, not once, even when they did exist.  My ex-wife for example.  Not sure that the pre-existing condition bug-a-boo is valid.

I just went through open-enrollment and witnessed the same. 

However, I don't think I would pay for the plan that I have if it had to be at full price, so for those who get insurance independently, (don't know from experience) such a small anomaly of "filling forms out to be approved for insurance" can translate into a huge cost.  (monetarily and human suffering)  But then again, I am assuming here.

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  • chovy
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Biker Dude wrote:
chovy wrote:

My biggest problems are the practices of the insurance industry, not covering people if they have pre-existing conditions, and not providing limits on the amount one pays out of pocket.

I will have to check but I think big government solved this problem, at least here.  I am pretty sure that it is illegal to not cover pre-existing conditions.  With the way smaller business shop around for health coverage, this would be a huge problem.  I think we have changed providers every year at the place I am now, and we are changing again Dec 1.  Never been asked about pre-existing conditions, not once, even when they did exist.  My ex-wife for example.  Not sure that the pre-existing condition bug-a-boo is valid.

On a group plan it isn't a problem. I was referring to paying for an individual plan. The majority of americans are small business owners or in business for themselves. I too would rather be working for myself, but there's no way to even get a company off the ground with the healthcare options and cost of them.

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  • From: Denver, CO
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

chovy wrote:

On a group plan it isn't a problem. I was referring to paying for an individual plan. The majority of americans are small business owners or in business for themselves. I too would rather be working for myself, but there's no way to even get a company off the ground with the healthcare options and cost of them.

Gotcha boss.

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  • chovy
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Patton wrote:
chovy wrote:

But the amount I pay for car insurance in one year is about what it costs for healthcare for one month.

You're worth more than your car, aren't you?

If you are, how much more?

...exactly smile

My main argument is that it's just too damn expensive.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-03
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

We should keep in mind that under the current system we as a collective ...as a nation, pay nearly twice as much per person than most countries and have the highest percentage of uninsured. We are already spending all the money needed to insure everyone…it just doesn’t go where it is needed.
You will only find out about "preexisting conditions" and denied coverage AFTER you file a claim. The insurer conducts an investigation, then finds something in your medical history that gets them off the hook for paying your claim.
  You can go for years thinking you are covered until you get sick and then, after years of premiums, you find you are high and dry, without a leg to stand on. This is why most people feel they are happy with their coverage...most having never filed a large claim.
http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/den … index.html

My original question that started this thread is more fundamental than the details of, who pays or how much, in what group. Health care IS considered a human right in virtually all wealthy industrialized countries all over the world. There is no denying that ...it is a nearly universal precept of civilized humanity everywhere... but here... in America.
  Somehow a percentage of Americans feel, as Biker does, that healthcare is not a human right. Our country is nearly unique in holding this view. My question is again where the hell does this come from?

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  • Registered: 2009-11-10
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

We are the only country on earth founded on establishing rights for the individual....."other industrialized countries" were founded by monarchial caesars and kings...and the people were told what their rights were.

It seems that those who established the rights for themselves must feel some things are earned as priveleges....and not given free, merely for just existing.

Last edited by Patton (2009-11-13 05:04:10)

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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Patton wrote:

We are the only country on earth founded on establishing rights for the individual....."other industrialized countries" were founded by monarchial caesars and kings...and the people were told what their rights were.

It seems that those who established the rights for themselves must feel some things are earned as priveleges....and not given free, merely for just existing.

An interesting though unsubstantiated answer.
Here is a list of countries that have universal healthcare insurance for their citizens.
Although some still have monarchies most do their legislative process by a democratically elected parliament and they have elected to make health care a human right for all their citizenry .Their healthcare was voted in, not “given” to them.
It should be noted also that none of these countries allow health insurance companies to make a profit providing coverage making the USA unique in yet another aspect.

Norway 1912 Single Payer
New Zealand 1938 Two Tier
Japan 1938 Single Payer
Germany 1941 Insurance Mandate
Belgium 1945 Insurance Mandate
United Kingdom 1948 Single Payer
Kuwait 1950 Single Payer
Sweden 1955 Single Payer
Bahrain 1957 Single Payer
Brunei 1958 Single Payer
Canada 1966 Single Payer
Netherlands 1966 Two-Tier
Austria 1967 Insurance Mandate
United Arab Emirates 1971 Single Payer
Finland 1972 Single Payer
Slovenia 1972 Single Payer
Denmark 1973 Two-Tier
Luxembourg 1973 Insurance Mandate
France 1974 Two-Tier
Australia 1975 Two Tier
Ireland 1977 Two-Tier
Italy 1978 Single Payer
Portugal 1979 Single Payer
Cyprus 1980 Single Payer
Greece 1983 Insurance Mandate
Spain 1986 Single Payer
South Korea 1988 Insurance Mandate
Iceland 1990 Single Payer
Hong Kong 1993 Two-Tier
Singapore 1993 Two-Tier
Switzerland 1994 Insurance Mandate
Israel 1995 Two-Tier
United States ? ?
http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/coun … e-by-date/

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  • From: Denver, CO
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

freethinker wrote:

An interesting though unsubstantiated answer.
Here is a list of countries that have universal healthcare insurance for their citizens.
Although some still have monarchies most do their legislative process by a democratically elected parliament and they have elected to make health care a human right for all their citizenry .Their healthcare was voted in, not “given” to them.
It should be noted also that none of these countries allow health insurance companies to make a profit providing coverage making the USA unique in yet another aspect.

So you don't want to let companies make a profit from providing health care insurance?  So who will be the provider of this coverage then?  The FedGov?  Because once you remove profit from the equation, the companies soon follow.  Why would you want FedGov to be your only provider?  Because they have proven to be so efficient at administering programs in the past?  What about the problems that some of the countries on your list are having with costs and cutting back on services?  I have not seen you address that at all.  Your position does not make sense to me...

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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

healthyt wrote:

I really do think Health care is a human right. If we talk about US. Every citizen should be provided with health care. As health cost is too high and not affordable for most of peoples.

If you will pardon me for saying so, your response seems to be poorly thought out and very sophomoric on a fairly nuanced subject.  Could you maybe read what has been posted so far and address some of the comments that have been brought forward already?

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  • Registered: 2009-11-03
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Kaiser Permanente and Blue Cross Blue Shield are two prominent examples of successful "not for profit" insurance companies.
Before the 1980s most health insurance companies in the US were "not for profit".
The countries that have the fewest cutbacks and the shortest waiting times for their health care are the countries that have a combination solution, where the responsibility for universal coverage is shared between the government, employers and individuals. Although no system is perfect these two tiered approaches seem to work better than purely single payer systems.
  Of the countries I listed only in America is an individual allowed to go bankrupt or die because of a lack of coverage durring an illness.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-10
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

People are allowed "to go bankrupt or die" because of a lack of food, water and housing also.....so what?

People "go bankrupt and die" for a variety of reasons....using this silly and obvious emotional tactic for your political gain gets tiresome.

Medicine is a "for profit" buisness like any other....those of us who do it every day do it for pay and profit....trying to make it into something else is ignorance.

Last edited by Patton (2009-11-14 13:01:40)

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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

freethinker wrote:

Kaiser Permanente and Blue Cross Blue Shield are two prominent examples of successful "not for profit" insurance companies.
Before the 1980s most health insurance companies in the US were "not for profit".
The countries that have the fewest cutbacks and the shortest waiting times for their health care are the countries that have a combination solution, where the responsibility for universal coverage is shared between the government, employers and individuals. Although no system is perfect these two tiered approaches seem to work better than purely single payer systems.
  Of the countries I listed only in America is an individual allowed to go bankrupt or die because of a lack of coverage durring an illness.

Do you understand the difference between 'not-for-profit' and 'non-profit'?  Because Kaiser does make a profit.  And their customer service and patient care is almost universally reviled as horrible and substandard.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-03
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

I'm not here to defend or condemn Kaiser Permanente.
Let it suffice to say that Kaiser Permanente does not have any shareholders
and they are tax exempt. I sited them as an example of an insurance company
that is not for profit. You seemed from your post, to be unaware that such an entity could exist.
There are many for profit insurance companies that could
also be rated as horrible and substandard as well.
Many of the problems in the US healthcare system can be directly related to
the insurance industry's need to return a profit to their shareholders.
Most denied care, annual increases in premiums that go well above increases in costs
and termination of coverage for preexisting conditions, are the result of the insurance
industry's prime directive to maximize profit and minimize the payment of claims.
My point in mentioning this is that no other wealthy industrialized country believes that this is a good thing for their citizenry and no other wealthy industrialized country in the world allows it.
IMHO this is largely a moral issue.

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  • From: Denver, CO
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Well, let me give you credit for a civil discussion.  I would like to address your last post, but I will have to come back to it.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-03
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

People are allowed "to go bankrupt or die" because of a lack of food, water and housing also.....so what?



                                            WOW!

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  • Registered: 2009-11-10
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

freethinker wrote:

People are allowed "to go bankrupt or die" because of a lack of food, water and housing also.....so what?



                                            WOW!

Intresting way to avoid the obvious weakness in your emotional plea for supporting the health reform bill.....you seem to have thought the fact that people die from lack of health insurance should get some special pleading versus dieng from other causes by the way you threw your hands up and proclaimed "only in America is an individual allowed to go bankrupt or die because of a lack of coverage durring an illness"....and if you are to defend that logic...then you appear as some partisan fundamentalist who seems to care only about this bill and could give a rip about those who die from other, more preventable, means......the "so what" was me giving credence to the fact people die over lots and lots of things....like malnutrition.

Maybe you tried to paint me as someone who just doesn't care.....good luck with that one.

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  • Registered: 2009-11-03
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Re: Is health care a "human right"?

Patton wrote:

People are allowed "to go bankrupt or die" because of a lack of food, water and housing also.....so what?

I'll just let your comment stand on it's own.
As I said to Biker Dude; IMHO this is largely a moral issue.

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